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We are about 4 miles away
from where Kevin Lee was murdered.
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As you can see, it's
a very rural area.
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It's very quiet.
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His body was found here in the ditch.
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He was face down roughly
where that tire is.
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His buttocks and his
legs were exposed.
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And he was wearing a
woman's cocktail dress.
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Joanne Dennehy shocked the nation
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{\an8}after going on a 10 day
killing spree in March 2013.
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You've got a female serial
killer who's also a mother.
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And that is rare.
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You think you know that
person, but actually you don't.
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But I didn't expect murder.
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{\an8}Dennehy stored his
body in a wheelie bin
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{\an8}before dumping it.
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The fact that they're all
male victims is not random.
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She wanted men.
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There's a fantasy there,
being the one with the power.
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The one with the control.
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Joanne Dennehy was
driven by a blood lust.
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This was a woman
who enjoyed killing.
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She has become
one of Britain's
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most notorious female killers.
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It still remains one of
the most shocking crimes
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that has ever been committed
by a woman in this country.
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{\an8}She started
stabbing me in the chest.
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{\an8}I fell to the ground.
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{\an8}And as I lay there, I thought,
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this is where I'm going to die.
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It's absolutely the right thing
that she won't come out of prison.
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In my view, she is
truly a psychopath.
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So many horrible men and women
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out there have committed
terrible crimes.
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But she stands head and
shoulders above the rest of them.
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Joanne Dennehy was just pure evil.
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{\an8}She belongs in hell.
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May she rot in hell.
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What made her change into somebody
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who wants to go around
stabbing men to death?
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{\an8}What compels her to do that?
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{\an8}What is going through
her head to do that?
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She wants the world
to be scared of her.
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"I've done many
things to many people.
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But I do not regret killing them."
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And then she's signed it with a star.
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Three men murdered.
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Their bodies dumped in two ditches
near Peterborough in March 2013.
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And one woman, Joanna Dennehy,
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admitted stabbing them all to death.
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{\an8}In my investigations
of many, many murders,
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{\an8}and many, many murderers,
Joanna Dennehy is the most cold,
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callous, calculated,
manipulative offender
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that I've ever had to deal with.
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{\an8}My work involves looking
at the childhood of an individual.
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{\an8}Looking at their early
years environment
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and what's happened
in that environment
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to lead them to the place
that they're at now.
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I think it's important
that we understand
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where criminal behaviours come from.
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If we don't understand
the trajectories
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that lead people towards crime,
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how can we ever prevent this
happening again in society?
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{\an8}Joanne was born in St. Albans
in Hertfordshire in 1982.
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She grew up in Harpenden,
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{\an8}which is a leafy, lovely, friendly,
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{\an8}quite expensive middle-class area.
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Her father was quite a strict
disciplinarian to a point.
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{\an8}Her mother was a
doting loving mother.
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The school Joanne went to
is a really lovely school.
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She played lots of sport.
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She was in the netball team.
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She learned musical instruments.
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Her family had really
high hopes for her.
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They were hoping that she
would go on to university
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and maybe even pursue
law as a career.
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She had, by all accounts,
a very normal childhood.
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She was very much that
blonde, blue eyed, beautiful,
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you know, happy go lucky girl.
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And at what point did she turn?
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{\an8}We tend to have this
age-old debate in criminology
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{\an8}as to whether
individuals are born evil.
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The reality of the matter
is there's no killing gene.
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A child's upbringing is fundamental
to who they become as an adult.
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And in this case, there could
have been significant trauma
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in her childhood for
her to have developed
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into the person that she's been.
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And that's not to say that
her family even knew about it.
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Their experience might have
been of a happy childhood.
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But her experience clearly was not.
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And that's how she's
ended up maturing
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into the person that
she has matured into.
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Joanne started using drugs
and alcohol when she was 13.
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She fell in with some fairground
workers that came to her town.
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And she started shoplifting,
drinking alcohol,
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and taking heavy drugs with them.
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A young vulnerable schoolgirl.
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Effectively, she's being
groomed by these men.
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Taking drugs and alcohol will
damage the brain at any age.
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But when the brain is
developing and evolving,
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it can cause irreparable damage.
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She started bunking off school.
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And that's when things started
to take a turn for the worse.
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She suddenly became out of control.
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So her parents tried to rein her in.
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And the more they
tried to rein her in,
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the more out of control that she got.
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She rebelled.
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It was only within a
space of a couple of years
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that she'd gone from allegedly
being a very happy child,
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everything being
quite calm and stable
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and functional at
home to then suddenly,
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getting involved
with drink and drugs,
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spending time and
associating with older people
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who were not a healthy
influence on her.
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When she was 15,
she entered into a relationship
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with a man who was five years
older than her at the time.
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{\an8}I'm John Treanor,
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{\an8}and I was in a relationship
with Joanna Dennehy
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{\an8}for about 10, 11 years.
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I met Jo in 1997.
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It was my dog.
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The dog drew her over.
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I had a lovely German
shepherd called Bonnie.
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And I used to take her
up to the park each day.
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Play football. Throw sticks.
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As a teenager, Joanne was bright.
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And she was very confident
and very outgoing,
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whereas John was a little bit
more reserved and introverted.
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And actually, those
qualities that Joanne had
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of being the outgoing,
extroverted person
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was what drew him to her.
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She was bubbly. Funny.
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I would've pretty much
done anything for her.
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You know what I mean?
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Her parents were really
against her being with John.
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They didn't like her going out with
somebody five years older than her.
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They thought that he was
a bad influence on her.
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They accepted me
for a little while.
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Well, put up with me, shall we say.
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I was never good enough
for their daughter.
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I think it's significant
that she's entered
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into a relationship
with an older man.
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Why was she seeking
out a relationship
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with someone older than her?
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I think she was probably
looking for safety, security.
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Jo didn't want to be at home
anymore with her mum and dad.
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She felt restricted.
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So that's how we ended up homeless.
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That was probably about a year.
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Sleeping in forests and
tents and train stations.
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Trying to make sure that we were fed.
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Somewhere to sleep.
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I hated it.
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But she loved it.
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I just wanted to be
in somewhere secure.
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That was just my drive.
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I didn't want to be
doing what we were doing.
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It's not me.
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The escape, the
living on floorboards,
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the stealing,
the shoplifting for booze
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was natural to her by now
because she'd been led astray
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by these fairground workers.
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I found being homeless
very, very difficult.
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But for her, it wasn't.
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The freedom of just doing
what she wanted to do.
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Like, she didn't have
to conform to anybody.
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And I guess that's what it was.
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{\an8}In 2013, I was a
detective superintendent.
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{\an8}And I was the head of the major crime
unit for Cambridgeshire Constabulary.
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My first involvement
with this case occurred
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on the 29th of March.
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I was at home in the evening.
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I had a phone call from
one of my senior detectives
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to say that some uniform
colleagues had referred a missing
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from home inquiry to him
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because there was some
suspicious circumstances.
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Kevin Lee was a married man.
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Resident of Peterborough.
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He ran a business known as Quick Let,
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which in essence was a
number of properties.
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And he used to rent
those to people largely
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who had their rent paid
by the benefits system.
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Kevin Lee's family were concerned
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because he didn't return
home when he was expected to.
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So they went out looking for him.
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They went to Rolleston Garth,
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where they knew that
Quick Let had a property.
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And whilst there, one of
the family members saw
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what they thought was Kevin's
car leave the area at speed.
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They tried to follow it.
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00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,080
They lost it at some traffic lights.
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And about 25 minutes later,
that car was reported burning
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00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,640
on a drove just outside of
Yaxley, near Peterborough.
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00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,400
Many cars that are set on fire
are set on fire by criminals
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{\an8}because they've been
involved in activity
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00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,440
{\an8}and they want to destroy any
forensic evidence associated with it.
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Uniformed police officers
started to make some inquiries
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00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,240
in relation to his
last known movements.
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00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,960
That obviously took
them to Rolleston Garth.
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00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,720
So they secured entry
to those premises.
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And immediately were concerned
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00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,879
because they did find some
blood spots within the property.
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00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,360
As a result, preserved that
particular property as a crime scene.
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00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,600
On the morning of Saturday,
the 30th of March,
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00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:10,919
a man walking his dog on
Middle Road in Newburgh,
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00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,200
a remote village on the
north side of Peterborough,
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00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,440
{\an8}discovered a body in a
ditch next to some farmland.
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00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:21,960
{\an8}The identity of the individual
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00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,040
in the ditch wasn't
immediately apparent.
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00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:28,640
But obviously, there were some
inquiries going on to find Kevin Lee.
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00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:30,400
So there was one eye on the fact
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00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:32,600
that this individual
could have been Kevin.
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00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,800
So we are in Middle
Road in Newborough.
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00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,520
As you can see, it's
a very rural area.
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00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,000
It's very quiet.
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00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,960
And for that reason, I
suspect it was the ideal site
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00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:57,680
for them to deposit a body.
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00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,840
The body was found here in the ditch.
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00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,479
He was faced down roughly
where that tyre is.
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00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,000
His buttocks and his
legs were exposed.
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00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,319
And he was wearing a
woman's cocktail dress.
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00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,760
Once the body was
recovered from Newburgh
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00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,320
and identified as Kevin Lee,
then we clearly were
226
00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,320
in the realms of a
murder investigation.
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00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,799
It is not just a murder
and a body being dumped.
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00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,079
There's a lot more at play there.
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00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,039
A man put in a dress.
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00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:30,640
The way he was positioned.
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00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,040
The way he was left humiliated,
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00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,400
with the dress pulled up
and his bottom on show.
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00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,120
Ultimately, there's a hugely
psychological component
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00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:40,720
to that murder.
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00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,080
I would imagine a police officer
will be terrified at that
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00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:45,839
and where that's going to end.
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00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,880
In 1999, when Joanne was just 17,
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00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,480
she and John moved in together
in a council flat in Milton Keynes.
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00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:11,920
And it was here that
she fell pregnant
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00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:13,160
with their first child.
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00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,320
On the surface, it looked
like she was starting
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00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:18,760
to build a life for herself.
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00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:20,320
Starting to build a family.
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00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:21,400
Things looked okay.
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00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,959
Me personally, I've always
wanted to be "2point4 Children."
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00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:26,999
You know what I mean?
247
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:28,600
Both have a job. Have holidays.
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00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:29,720
That was me.
249
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:34,680
We spoke about it.
250
00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,080
And I think that was her as well.
251
00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:39,680
But it wasn't real.
252
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,599
I think she was quite
good at feeding me crap.
253
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,439
And I swallowed it.
254
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,080
I was quite gullible,
to be perfectly honest.
255
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,519
When she was pregnant
with her first child,
256
00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,160
Joanne actually seemed
to turn a corner.
257
00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,439
She stopped the
drinking and the drugs.
258
00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,240
And it seemed that she was
really making an effort
259
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,840
to turn her life around
for her future child.
260
00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,160
Once she was born,
it became apparent
261
00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,159
that I'm the sole
carer doing everything,
262
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,360
while she does what she wants to do.
263
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:12,839
It started to go downhill
really quite quickly.
264
00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,719
It does speak to the
fact that she's so consumed
265
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:20,880
with what's going on in her own mind.
266
00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,960
I wonder if there's
even space in there
267
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,479
to accommodate the needs
of an infant, really.
268
00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:29,559
I mean, she's 17 years old.
269
00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:31,399
I don't think she was able to.
270
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,680
She's too busy trying
to survive herself.
271
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,159
I was more than happy
to bring up my daughter.
272
00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,599
You know, it's like you go out
and do what you need to do.
273
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,160
And I will make sure
that these are good.
274
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,080
Because she didn't have
that want to do that,
275
00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:46,280
if that makes sense.
276
00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:49,760
A lot of people
have said she seemed
277
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:54,200
to lack a maternal instinct
and didn't have that warm,
278
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,600
compassionate care that a mother
really is expected to have.
279
00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:01,120
She was playful.
280
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,519
Sometimes too playful, I thought.
281
00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,840
Like, please, don't throw
them on the sofa like that.
282
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:08,719
She was still drinking.
283
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:10,560
Like, she would wake
up in the morning,
284
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,040
still needing to have
her beers and whatnot.
285
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,039
It was all action for her.
286
00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:16,200
When my daughter was younger,
287
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,719
she would've seen it as the
only mother time she's getting.
288
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,320
And the things that she did
with her were not correct.
289
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,440
So she would've seen it as fun.
290
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:27,919
I didn't.
291
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,640
It sounds more like a sibling
relationship, doesn't it,
292
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,520
than a mother-child relationship.
293
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:35,479
She's emotionally immature, you know.
294
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:36,800
And that's what this demonstrates.
295
00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,840
After the birth of
her first daughter,
296
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:41,880
Joanne quickly returned
to her old ways.
297
00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:43,360
She began drinking again.
298
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,360
And, really, it seemed
like she lost interest
299
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:46,880
in being a mother.
300
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:48,759
It's quite possible she
didn't have the the best
301
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:50,640
of times as a young child,
302
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,400
for whatever reason that might
have been, that having a baby
303
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,440
of her own would've
been triggering for her.
304
00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,280
If she's been taking a
lot of drink and drugs
305
00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,800
for the previous four years,
from the age of 13,
306
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,280
she won't have been
processing anything healthily.
307
00:17:04,360 --> 00:17:07,560
So she'll have had four
years of experiences,
308
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,720
and who knows what kind
of experiences they were,
309
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:11,839
with the types of people
that she was around,
310
00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:13,200
that she also hasn't processed.
311
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,319
So then she stops drinking.
312
00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,320
And during the pregnancy,
she would've had all
313
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,759
of these things popping
back up in her mind.
314
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,840
And naturally, the first
thing she would want
315
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,000
to do after her pregnancy is
316
00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,480
to block these things
out as soon as she could.
317
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,000
And that's why she's gone
back to the drink and drugs.
318
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,239
In a bid to get their
relationship back on track
319
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,520
{\an8}and really make things
work between them,
320
00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,920
{\an8}Joanne and John actually moved away
from Milton Keynes in 2001.
321
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:55,679
We moved to King's Lynn.
322
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,480
And she got a job working the land,
323
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:00,200
picking the veg and stuff,
324
00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,120
while I did looking
after my daughter.
325
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,200
It was going all right
for the first few weeks.
326
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,320
And then she started
coming home without wages.
327
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,320
And she started coming
home really late.
328
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,640
And then not for the night.
329
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,200
And it was all drink fueled.
330
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,480
And she started being
paid in alcohol.
331
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:21,320
She turned up on one
of the days from work.
332
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,679
She walked through the
door absolutely smashed
333
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,280
out of her face with
two bottles of vodka
334
00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:29,719
and some stolen clothes and
stuff that she'd been paid in.
335
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,160
And I'm like, well, this isn't
going to feed my daughter.
336
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:33,519
It's only feeding you.
337
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,959
And it kind of led to
a bit of an argument.
338
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:36,999
And she just went off it
339
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,160
and smashed the bottle
of vodka in the kitchen
340
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:40,719
while we were in there.
341
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,960
And off she went
and I didn't see her again.
342
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:45,160
I think it's hard
for someone like her
343
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:46,960
to be a loving mother and partner
344
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,879
because she's too
lost in her own chaos.
345
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:51,280
You know, the drug addictions,
346
00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:53,320
what's going on in her own mind.
347
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,960
She hasn't got the capacity to think
about the needs of others.
348
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:57,560
She can barely look after herself.
349
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,440
Joanne then
disappeared for 18 months.
350
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:02,880
Didn't see her daughter.
351
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:04,359
I didn't know where she was at all.
352
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,080
Within that time,
Joanna was arrested
353
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,200
for a violent, vicious, assault.
354
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:18,640
She ended up in prison
355
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,159
and then sectioned under
the Mental Health Act.
356
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:22,600
{\an8}And she was diagnosed
357
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,040
{\an8}as having a very serious
personality disorder.
358
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:28,759
Joanne was diagnosed with
359
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,440
antisocial psychopathic
personality disorder.
360
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,160
{\an8}People with antisocial
personality disorder
361
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,360
{\an8}don't care about society's rules.
362
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:40,840
They tend to be quite prevalent
363
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,720
{\an8}with individuals
that are quite angry,
364
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:45,480
{\an8}that are full of aggression,
365
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,640
{\an8}that display impulsive behavior.
366
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,640
People with psychopathic
personalities tend
367
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,960
to have impaired empathy and remorse.
368
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,840
{\an8}They tend to externalize
any accountability.
369
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,320
{\an8}They're bold, disinhibited,
and egocentric.
370
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,080
And if you have a
sensitive brain chemistry
371
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,000
and you are already dysregulated
372
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,399
and already emotionally unstable,
373
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,480
anything that has the capacity
374
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,880
to affect your mood will
have a destabilising effect.
375
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:21,280
Therefore, drink and
drugs in somebody
376
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:24,559
with a disorder like
Joanne's is likely
377
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:26,159
to have more of an effect on them
378
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,520
than it would on somebody who
doesn't have that diagnosis.
379
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,040
Towards the end of that 18
months, I got a letter sent.
380
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:44,000
I ignored it.
381
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:45,400
Said I didn't want it.
382
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,400
A few weeks later, there's
another one turned up.
383
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,599
So I thought, "Oh, all right,
I'll open it."
384
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,400
And it was basically
saying she's in prison.
385
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,399
{\an8}And she's on tablets to help
with this, this, and this.
386
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:56,439
{\an8}Would I come and see her?
387
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,079
{\an8}So I went and visited her.
388
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,080
When she came out of prison,
389
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,880
Joanne was begging
John to take her back.
390
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:08,760
And he ended up agreeing
391
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,240
and giving the relationship
with her another go.
392
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,200
I just wanted my
daughter to have a mother.
393
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,320
So we got her back to normal.
394
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,400
It was relatively normal for a year.
395
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:23,600
And then we were pregnant.
396
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,440
And honestly, I will never,
ever, ever forget her
397
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,199
coming out of the doctors'
and storming straight past me
398
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,040
with the worst look on her face.
399
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:33,400
Like, "I'm pregnant" and stormed off.
400
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,880
You know, she wanted five
kids in that period of normal.
401
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:39,800
She's like, "Oh, we
should have five kids."
402
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:40,960
Blah, blah, blah.
403
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,360
So we talked about it
and then she found out
404
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,760
and it was like the
whole world had ended.
405
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:50,160
And for me, I'm like, I'm ecstatic.
406
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,920
And it's hard to be happy
when the other person's not.
407
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,120
Despite her misgivings
about falling pregnant again,
408
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,280
Joanne gave up the
drink and the drugs.
409
00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:13,240
And she tried really hard to
stay as healthy as possible
410
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,279
and provide the best chance
for her second daughter.
411
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:17,480
However, it wasn't that long
412
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,960
after her second daughter
was born that actually,
413
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:21,920
Joanne was back to
her old ways again.
414
00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:27,720
She got invited to a party
on a Sunday for the little kiddies.
415
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,160
And she hadn't drunk for, oh God,
416
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:32,800
so she'd done the
nine months pregnancy
417
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:37,880
and probably about seven or
eight months of Saff being born.
418
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,440
And she went to this
party and it all changed.
419
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:43,160
Because she went and had a drink.
420
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,880
And it just went downhill
straight away from that moment.
421
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,040
Often, people with
personality disorder
422
00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:53,800
have self-defeating characteristics,
423
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,400
where even if life seems to
be going relatively stable,
424
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,680
they will act in ways to derail that.
425
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,400
She had all the freedom
to go and better herself.
426
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,400
But actually, she was
just damaging herself.
427
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:11,360
Probably the best
thing she's ever done
428
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,080
for both of the children is not drink
429
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:14,800
and smoke while she was pregnant.
430
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:16,680
But she couldn't do
it once they come out.
431
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,320
She couldn't just be their
mum and do it normally.
432
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:22,440
It wasn't in her.
433
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,160
Drink, the alcohol,
it changes people.
434
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,680
That's what changed her, for sure.
435
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,000
The bingeing of it.
436
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:39,560
The amount she would consume.
437
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:40,960
It would ruin anyone.
438
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,120
She wasn't really
interested in being a mum.
439
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,880
{\an8}It wasn't exciting enough for her.
440
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,480
{\an8}She was much more
interested in going out
441
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:50,880
and doing her own thing
442
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,760
and seeking excitement all the time.
443
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:55,760
I mean, I've heard all sorts.
444
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,080
Like, she's having sex
with two men in a graveyard
445
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,680
or she's pummeled somebody's
head off a kerb at a pub
446
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,479
or all sorts of stuff.
447
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,319
And, yeah. Self-harming.
448
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,960
I caught her going into my bathroom
and she'd done one up her arm.
449
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,679
And I'm like, "What the
hell are you doing?"
450
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,679
Self-harm, in its
most serious forms,
451
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,880
like Joanne's self-harm was,
452
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,560
usually means that someone's dealing
453
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:29,039
with internal rage and pain
that is absolutely intolerable.
454
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:30,800
And they just cannot deal with it.
455
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,880
And they inflict the
pain back on themselves.
456
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,240
You can't tell what
somebody's thinking.
457
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,679
You don't know where they're going.
458
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:40,679
You're in a relationship.
459
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,280
You think you know that person,
but actually, you don't.
460
00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:44,880
As much as she puts on the bravado
461
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:46,480
of being this really
strong, scary person,
462
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,360
I think she's actually quite
vulnerable underneath it all.
463
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,240
Because a strong person who
doesn't care about anything
464
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,840
wouldn't feel the need
to cut themselves.
465
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,240
Wouldn't feel the need to obliterate
themselves with drink and drugs.
466
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,160
It just kind of
progressed and got worse.
467
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,839
The things that she
did as time went on.
468
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:06,679
But I didn't expect murder.
469
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,120
{\an8}The background inquiries
that were conducted
470
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,280
{\an8}in relation to Kevin's
life did establish
471
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:43,360
{\an8}that he had been in
a sexual relationship
472
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,599
with Joanna Dennehy for some
months prior to his death.
473
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:50,360
Kevin Lee was last seen alive
474
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,960
by an associate of his
near to Rolleston Garth.
475
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:55,600
During that interaction,
476
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,800
Kevin Lee told this individual
that Dennehy wanted him
477
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:03,160
to dress up in a woman's
dress as she'd fantasised
478
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,000
about raping a man
dressed in that way.
479
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:08,800
The longer that
investigation went on,
480
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,480
the more Joanne came to the fore.
481
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,640
This was kind of galvanized
by phone data work,
482
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,560
which did identify some interaction
483
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,960
between Kevin Lee's phone
and Joanne Dennehy's phone.
484
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,400
But also, that's when
Gary Stretch started
485
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:23,919
to feature prominently as well.
486
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,919
Gary Stretch is a very
distinctive individual.
487
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,639
He's a very large man.
He's seven foot three.
488
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,399
He was somebody who had a very
extensive criminal history.
489
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,839
Largely associated with
offenses of dishonesty.
490
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:42,159
Some of violence.
491
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:45,399
He was a burglar.
492
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,520
And not a very successful
burglar at that.
493
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,999
Because, as one of the
police officers told me,
494
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,480
that when he would
climb through a window,
495
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,080
his feet would follow
about 10 minutes later.
496
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,080
He has got an extremely low IQ.
497
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,640
And he falls in with Joanne Dennehy.
498
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,040
And she manipulates Gary Stretch.
499
00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:07,880
And he becomes her minder.
500
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:09,840
Her protector.
501
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,560
Joanne Dennehy and Gary
Stretch were identified
502
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,080
as key individuals that
we wanted to speak to
503
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,000
in relation to Kevin Lee's death.
504
00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:32,760
As a consequence,
on Sunday the 31st of March,
505
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,560
officers went to an address
in Bifield in Autumn Gold Hay.
506
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,160
This is the address which we believe
507
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,280
that Joanne Dennehy
had been living at.
508
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,040
By the time police got to
the house, Joanne wasn't there.
509
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,000
The property was searched.
510
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:50,760
And in the rear garden,
511
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:52,640
there was a bloodstained mattress
512
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:54,160
that was found and recovered.
513
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,719
{\an8}Whilst at Bifield,
officers came across
514
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,120
another resident there
by the name of Leslie Layton.
515
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,680
He said that he knew Joanne Dennehy.
516
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,520
But he hadn't seen her for
some considerable time.
517
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,200
A third resident by the
name of John Chapman,
518
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,440
who we established was
living at the address,
519
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:12,759
couldn't be located.
520
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,960
By 2009, Joanne and John were
actually living separately.
521
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,760
And Joanne continued with the
drinking and the drug-taking.
522
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,279
But even though she wasn't
living with her daughters,
523
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,840
her behavior still
impacted the family.
524
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:54,320
I cared about her.
525
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,799
I didn't like seeing the
self-destruct button.
526
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:57,799
I hated it.
527
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,200
More so because where we lived,
528
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,520
we were walking around and
my daughters were seeing it.
529
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,319
Seeing the level of
how low she had got.
530
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:07,960
So it wasn't love then? No.
531
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,840
For the last year of us being
in the same vicinity, it wasn't love.
532
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,440
It was more I was trying
to help her constantly.
533
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:17,119
I saw her in a park.
534
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:18,999
And she was wearing a
pair of man's shoes.
535
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,080
And she stunk.
536
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,159
I took her back to mine and said,
"Go get yourself a bath.
537
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:26,520
And I took her up to town.
538
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,079
I bought her some of the
jeans and a top and a jumper.
539
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,600
And just made her feel
normal for five minutes.
540
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,880
Nobody was there
dealing with it but me.
541
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,400
You know, everybody's
got a finger to point.
542
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,720
But, actually, I was
the one being destroyed.
543
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,080
It wasn't the other way around.
544
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:47,439
I gave it to the last bit
545
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,400
until I couldn't see my
children take no more
546
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,400
of what they were seeing, hearing.
547
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,720
I've got social services on my back,
548
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,080
telling me I've got
to make a decision
549
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,439
when she turns up,
to opening the door.
550
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,479
Is she drunk? High?
551
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,279
Is she able to come in?
552
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,559
And she's out of her face on alcohol.
553
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,400
When I'm like, no, you can't come in,
554
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,040
physical abuse would be there.
555
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:11,159
Putting my head into the wall.
556
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,280
And the worst bit, I
think, is the mental side.
557
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:16,840
It strips you of everything.
558
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:18,640
Honestly, my head was to the floor.
559
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:19,799
It was that bad.
560
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,560
It makes me shake inside
because it was horrible.
561
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,680
The final straw for John was
when Joanne turned up at the house
562
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:37,800
with a knife that
she'd kept in her boot.
563
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,400
She just sat on the
floor, pulled a knife out,
564
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,759
and just said, "I could
just kill somebody."
565
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,759
And she had pins all in
her legs and her arms.
566
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:45,959
And it was all blood everywhere.
567
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,840
And she'd brought a jar of
5p's to try and contribute,
568
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:51,760
which she'd stolen from somewhere.
569
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:53,320
And she was off her face as well.
570
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:54,640
And when I sit here now,
571
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,520
it's like should I
have rang somebody?
572
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,119
But I was just more focused on
573
00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,799
not letting her get
near them children.
574
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,800
Please, I just want
you out of my house.
575
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:05,279
I get goosebumps.
576
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,759
It goes all through me
and it's horrible.
577
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,000
John made the decision that he had
578
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,640
to get his daughters as far
away from Joanne as possible.
579
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,639
I said, look, I'm
actually going today.
580
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,760
I'm taking the kids
and we're off.
581
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,199
There was no, please don't go,
none of that.
582
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,320
I think she kind of had to accept it.
583
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:49,760
Despite our best efforts,
584
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:51,320
we were unable, at that early stage,
585
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,160
to be able to locate
Stretch and Dennehy.
586
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,880
{\an8}We were very, very
concerned for public safety,
587
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,680
{\an8}given the fact that we felt they
were involved in Kevin's murder.
588
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,719
And we felt that the best way
to be able to identify them
589
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,840
was to call for public assistance.
590
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:07,800
So photographs of Stretch and Dennehy
591
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,120
with their descriptions
was released to the media.
592
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,840
Police are appealing for
help in tracing two people
593
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,760
in connection with the murder
of a man in Peterborough.
594
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,760
The body of Kevin Lee, who was 44,
595
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,400
was found close to the A16
596
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,120
in Newborough near
Peterborough on Saturday.
597
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:24,760
He'd died from stab wounds.
598
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,880
As a result of the media release,
599
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,120
we had a phone call from a
police officer in Norfolk,
600
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,560
who'd gone to an
offense of making off
601
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,760
without payment from
a petrol station.
602
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,760
And at that location, had
identified two individuals
603
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,800
that fitted the description
of Stretch and Dennehy.
604
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:44,960
We were notified
605
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,480
and as a result of that
particular drive off,
606
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,960
we were able to establish
the index number of the car
607
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:51,160
that they were using.
608
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:52,800
A green Vauxhall Astra.
609
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,520
So that was a significant
breakthrough for us.
610
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,240
It enabled us to use the ANPR network
611
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,759
around the country to try
and locate the vehicle.
612
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,760
Whilst Stretch and Dennehy
were being tracked down,
613
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:08,280
we were doing a lot of phone work.
614
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:09,960
And we established that a phone
615
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,360
that we could attribute to John
Chapman was also interacting
616
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,440
with those that we knew were
being used by Stretch and Dennehy.
617
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,480
The phone was also interacting
618
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,920
with a phone belonging
to Leslie Layton as well.
619
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,840
{\an8}We also knew at that stage that
the blood staining on the mattress
620
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:30,880
{\an8}was attributable to John Chapman.
621
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,440
So we were keeping an open mind
622
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,840
but John Chapman sat in the category
of either potential suspect
623
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:39,960
or potentially another victim.
624
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,400
The ANPR work that we did established
625
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,080
that Stretch and Dennehy
may have been traveling
626
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,560
in the general direction of Hereford.
627
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,120
And some background work
on Stretch identified
628
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,000
that he did have at least
one associate in that area.
629
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,160
So a phone call was made
to West Mercia Police,
630
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,240
just to advise them that we were
looking for these two individuals
631
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,960
and that they may
soon be in their area.
632
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,520
After John Treanor fled
Joanne Dennehy in terror,
633
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,200
{\an8}she was in and out of prison like
a rubber ball on an elastic band.
634
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,120
No respect for law and order.
No respect for her children.
635
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,960
No respect for John Treanor.
No respect for her parents.
636
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:39,880
She became totally antisocial.
637
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:41,600
She's mentally disintegrating.
638
00:34:43,720 --> 00:34:47,840
{\an8}Prison as a place of incarceration
for Dennehy clearly didn't work
639
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,160
{\an8}because this is an
individual who bases her life
640
00:34:51,240 --> 00:34:56,560
on greed, manipulation,
control, dominance, impulsivity.
641
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:58,160
And prison doesn't teach you
642
00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:01,800
how to effectively
rehabilitate from these things.
643
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,000
If anything, during
her time in prison,
644
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,080
her behavior would've
accelerated and amplified.
645
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,640
And she would've used
her time in prison
646
00:35:09,720 --> 00:35:12,600
to think about what she can
do in the outside world,
647
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:17,520
so as to be able to get her
fix and to satisfy her needs.
648
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,640
What happened with
Joanna in intervening years
649
00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:25,520
before she really got
into serious trouble
650
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:27,800
is rather clouded in mystery.
651
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,480
My dad introduced Joanne to
our lives when I was about 12.
652
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,480
{\an8}The first girlfriend, I think,
after my mum and dad's divorce.
653
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,040
And, yeah.
654
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,880
Just got a really like, cold feeling
about her straight away.
655
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:47,560
She didn't smile.
656
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,000
She wasn't warm and welcoming.
657
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,160
And she kind of like,
tainted our weekends
658
00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:54,400
with my dad like, straight away.
659
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,400
The end of the relationship
of Danielle's parents
660
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,319
{\an8}will have been a
confusing time for her.
661
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,199
{\an8}And what she will have needed
would've been kindness,
662
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,400
nurturance, and guidance from any
figure that was within her life.
663
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:08,800
And Joanne just
wouldn't have been able
664
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,200
to offer that to Danielle.
665
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,080
My dad was a little
bit older than her.
666
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,319
And she was obviously
paying my dad attention.
667
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:16,359
He just wanted to be loved.
668
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:17,479
He didn't want to be alone.
669
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:22,359
And I think she saw his
kindness as such a weakness.
670
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,360
And she was like, I'm going to
take everything I can out of him.
671
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:29,920
Their relationship moved from like,
672
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,200
zero to a hundred
like, really quickly.
673
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,240
And she moved in pretty
much straight away.
674
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,480
So that just kind of
put such a dark cloud
675
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,280
over our like, childhood home.
676
00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:42,360
She was supposedly meant
to be a step-mum figure.
677
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,280
But there was no motherly love
or instinct about her at all.
678
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,240
I feel like she was jealous,
679
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,360
which is so strange to
be jealous of a child.
680
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,920
But I think she just wanted
my dad's full attention.
681
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,920
You know, she was his only girl.
682
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,640
I don't think she'll have
seen Danielle as a stepdaughter.
683
00:36:57,720 --> 00:36:59,960
I think she'll probably have
seen her more as a rival.
684
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,560
She was in the way
of Joanne being able
685
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,000
to have power and
control and ultimately,
686
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,919
monopolise the
attention of the father.
687
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,600
Any children in that relationship
will just have been incidentals
688
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,360
and seen as irrelevant
for her to engage with.
689
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,080
I don't think I ever had
two seconds alone with my dad.
690
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,360
She was just there all the time.
691
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,480
And she'd like, drink from
like, morning to night as well.
692
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,320
The empty bottles of vodka
would be sat on the side.
693
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,720
It just all of a sudden felt
like it was Joanna's house.
694
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:33,880
And we were like, the guests.
695
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,040
She never had really any
interactions with me.
696
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:46,200
But one day, she was like,
697
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:47,999
"Oh, do you want to
learn how to dance?"
698
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:49,600
And I was like, "She wants
to spend some time with me.
699
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,079
This is like, amazing.
Oh my god. She does like me."
700
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:55,760
And we were practicing
dancing for ages.
701
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,800
And she seemed to be really like,
excited about it.
702
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,560
And she was like,
"We're going to perform this
703
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:03,000
in front of your dad."
704
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,600
It wasn't until I got home
and showed my mum the dance
705
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,560
that I realized what she'd kind
of been trying to teach me.
706
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:10,719
It was very sexually like, explicit.
707
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:12,000
My mum was mortified.
708
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:13,840
Absolutely mortified.
709
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,879
The fact that she thinks this
is appropriate with a 13-year-old
710
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,120
{\an8}suggests to me that she
has no understanding
711
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,719
{\an8}of what is considered
appropriate sexual contact.
712
00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:22,920
And no boundaries.
713
00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:26,879
After a few years, my dad
finally saw her true colors
714
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,840
and ended the relationship with her.
715
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,760
She ended up sleeping with
one of my dad's friends
716
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:33,920
behind his back in
exchange for vodka.
717
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,039
So, yeah, he literally
chucked her out.
718
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:38,280
I was over the moon.
719
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,520
Like, absolutely over the
moon that I had my dad back.
720
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,880
But he was very angry and upset.
721
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,440
So it took me a while to start
building up the confidence
722
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:48,240
to go to my dad's on
the weekends again.
723
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,119
Although it was just him there,
724
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,559
her presence kind of
remained in the house,
725
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,360
which I look back now and
it makes me really sad.
726
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:57,720
Because I'd do anything
727
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,119
to have those weekends
back with my dad.
728
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,560
Joanne Dennehy first
became known to Kevin Lee
729
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,560
when she walked into
the Quick Let Office
730
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,200
in Peterborough in 2012,
731
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,560
looking to rent some accommodation.
732
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,240
She told them at that
time that she'd been
733
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,600
in prison for some violent offences.
734
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,360
But nevertheless, they were satisfied
735
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,400
that she would be somebody they could
736
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,319
offer some accommodation to.
737
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,080
And she became a tenant of theirs.
738
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,199
The area where we lived
was a close-knit community.
739
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:52,680
We always helped each other out,
740
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,200
or if someone new moved in,
we got to know them.
741
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,480
And if they needed any help,
we would always be there for them.
742
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,120
{\an8}I was a neighbor of Joanne Dennehy.
743
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,200
{\an8}And I was a friend of John Chapman.
744
00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:09,480
Three tenants lived in there.
745
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,200
There was John Dennehy,
John Chapman, and Les Leighton.
746
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:16,519
You see.
747
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:18,320
As I point up to it.
748
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,720
That was Dennehy's
room where she slept.
749
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,000
John's bedroom was the
first floor at the back.
750
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:26,640
And that is Les Layton's room.
751
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,439
I lived in the house
at the end there.
752
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:35,840
John Chapman.
753
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,399
Quite well-decorated ex-Navy,
who's fallen on hard times,
754
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,760
and turned to drink and
became an alcoholic.
755
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,760
We had a nickname for him,
Uncle Albert.
756
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,599
Hearing all his naval
stories would just remind us
757
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,439
of Uncle Albert from
"Only Fools and Horses."
758
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,880
He and I to sit down and talk.
759
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,840
You know, hearing his stories,
it was just wonderful.
760
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,240
He was married to a
lovely woman called Anne.
761
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,960
And then she sadly passed away.
762
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,520
And he started drinking
because he couldn't cope.
763
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,400
When you've got that
addiction, it's hard.
764
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,520
Since Dennehy came out of prison,
765
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,320
Kevin Lee was not only her landlord,
766
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,440
the pair had become engaged
in an affair together.
767
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,400
{\an8}So he was also her lover.
768
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,720
{\an8}And he had used her
intimidating reputation
769
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,120
and look as an enforcer for him
770
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,320
to collect unpaid rent
and bills and debts.
771
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,800
{\an8}She went around and spoke
to them, threatened them,
772
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:44,000
{\an8}sometimes used violence to make
sure that he got his money.
773
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:48,960
Working as an enforcer for
Kevin Lee, I should imagine,
774
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,760
has given her a sense
of power and purpose.
775
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:54,560
I expect she'll have enjoyed it.
776
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:56,320
And, you know, the lack of empathy
777
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,640
that she allegedly has means
778
00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:00,760
that it will not have
weighed heavy on her,
779
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:02,480
knowing that she was
doing this to people.
780
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,680
Les Layton said how
scared he was of Joanne.
781
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,320
John come in and he was shaking.
782
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,040
A bit tearful as well.
783
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:13,160
Saying that, "She's
gonna get rid of me.
784
00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:14,320
She's gonna get rid of me."
785
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,080
And we just said, "Oh,
shut up, John," you know.
786
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,840
But if only we knew
then what we know now.
787
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,800
{\an8}I was the superintendent
local policing commander.
788
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,440
It started, of course,
as a normal day.
789
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,720
I received a briefing from one
of my intelligence officers.
790
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,360
And there was a particular
item of interest in there.
791
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,960
We'd been contacted by
Cambridge Constabulary
792
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,480
to say that they were
in the very early stages
793
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,240
of what they believed to
be a murder investigation.
794
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:10,880
And they'd identified two people,
795
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,920
who they described as
being of interest to them.
796
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:17,840
One was Joanna Dennehy.
797
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,560
And the other was Gary Stretch.
798
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,360
And they were believed to be using
a particular green Astra vehicle.
799
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,880
Shortly after half past
three in the afternoon,
800
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:29,799
my detective chief
inspector came to me
801
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:31,359
and explained to me that there had
802
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,160
being a serious
incident on the street.
803
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,400
And one of my detective
inspectors came to me
804
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:38,800
and said, "Oh, boss,
just to let you know.
805
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:40,599
There's been a stabbing
on the street."
806
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:42,479
Of course, I responded
saying, "Yes, I know that."
807
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,520
And actually, it transpired
that my DI was explaining
808
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:47,719
to me there'd been a second stabbing.
809
00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:51,200
A man in his 60s
was stabbed on West Faling Street.
810
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:55,000
10 minutes later, a second man
was stabbed on the footpath
811
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,000
between Golden Post
and the Belmont Estate.
812
00:43:58,080 --> 00:43:59,639
He was in his 50s.
813
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,360
And, of course, then
your blood runs cold
814
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:02,880
and the hairs are on
the back of your neck.
815
00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:06,560
This is a very, very rare
event for any city, really.
816
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,360
But especially for Hereford.
817
00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:10,799
Only last week,
818
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,160
Hereford was named as the
safest place in Britain.
819
00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:17,280
Now, these attacks have
left the community in shock.
820
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,240
To have two random knife attacks
821
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,560
{\an8}on complete strangers
during broad daylight
822
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,160
{\an8}in what was the school
holidays is very, very rare.
823
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,240
Your concern immediately is,
824
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,880
these are so random in nature.
825
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:35,840
What is the extent
of this going to be?
826
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,640
And how many more
attacks could there be?
827
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,000
The timescale between
the two was so short.
828
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,200
Of course, you work on the
assumption they must be linked.
829
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:50,960
But you have no basis other
830
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,600
than your gut instinct to
say that that's the case.
831
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,359
The ambulance service had
responded to the first victim,
832
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,960
who had described his attacker
as having a tattoo on her cheek.
833
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,760
The officer from the intelligence
department that I'd spoken
834
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:08,000
to earlier immediately
put two and two together.
835
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:10,960
Reflected on the content
of the morning briefing.
836
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,200
We have photographs
of those individuals.
837
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,720
And indeed, Joanna Dennehy
did have that tattoo.
838
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,839
The first victim,
Robin Bereza, was 63.
839
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:20,879
He's well known.
840
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,720
He'd been both a firefighter
and also a postman.
841
00:45:25,720 --> 00:45:29,680
He was walking his dog in the
direction of his home address.
842
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:31,359
Joanna got out of the car
843
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,040
and stabbed Mr. Bereza in the back.
844
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:36,400
She then attacked him from the front.
845
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:37,880
And so vicious was her attack,
846
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,440
when Mr. Bereza raised
his arm to defend himself,
847
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,920
she actually ended up
breaking a bone in his arm.
848
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:48,760
Incredibly, he managed to find
his way to a home address,
849
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:50,320
which was when the alarm was raised.
850
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:53,800
Then they drive over the River Wye
851
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,799
to South Hereford to an
area around the Golden Post.
852
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,040
And John Rogers had
literally just come out
853
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:01,600
to walk his dog, Archie.
854
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,360
He was 56 years of age.
855
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,160
He was well known, well liked.
856
00:46:06,240 --> 00:46:09,520
Just an ordinary guy, again,
going about his ordinary business.
857
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:12,879
Gary Stretch stops the car.
858
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,039
Joanna Dennehy then approached
John Rogers from behind
859
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,680
and again starts stabbing John.
860
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:19,959
He's stabbed in the
back multiple times.
861
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,680
He falls to the floor.
862
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,320
He's stabbed in the
chest area, the abdomen.
863
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,399
His bowels and kidney are severed.
864
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:28,960
And he's pleading with
Joanna Dennehy to stop.
865
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:30,280
But she says words to the effect of,
866
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,440
"Well, look, you're bleeding.
I better do it some more."
867
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:33,880
And then turns him over on his front
868
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,280
and stabs him some
more times in the back
869
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:37,960
and leaves John for dead.
870
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,800
And for some inexplicable reason,
871
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,080
Joanna Dennehy took
Mr. Rogers' dog from the scene,
872
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,040
put it in the car,
and drove off with it.
873
00:46:52,720 --> 00:46:57,319
30 times she stabbed
the final victim.
874
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,800
And I expect she's trying to get
875
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:03,160
that feeling that she got
from the first victim back.
876
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,760
She wasn't getting the release
that she was hoping for,
877
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,080
which is why it's such
a frenzied attack.
878
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,320
She just wants to feel
what she wants to feel.
879
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:12,640
And she's going for it.
880
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:14,320
Much like a drug addict
would with a drug.
881
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,040
Much like an alcoholic
would with a drink.
882
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,120
Two stabbings at two
different locations in Hereford.
883
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,479
Police say both
random and unprovoked.
884
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:27,680
Anybody who thinks
885
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,040
{\an8}that they may have seen
suspicious activity,
886
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:31,360
{\an8}please get in touch with us.
887
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,320
{\an8}It may be that small piece of
information is useful to us.
888
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,560
There is an element of policing
that is built upon good luck.
889
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,360
But that good luck is founded
on the principles of good policing,
890
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,800
one of which is understanding
your local communities.
891
00:47:54,720 --> 00:47:57,680
On hearing the scene
of the second attack,
892
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,120
we formed the opinion there
was a strong likelihood
893
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:04,520
to be linked to activities
in an area known as The Oval,
894
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:05,960
which had a reputation
895
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,320
for being high crime
and involving drugs.
896
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,000
We chose to deploy to The Oval.
897
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,560
And that good luck conspired.
898
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:19,760
When they arrived at the scene,
899
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,480
they found the green Astra vehicle.
900
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,160
Joanna Dennehy is
alone in the vehicle.
901
00:48:27,240 --> 00:48:30,480
Sat with Archie,
the dog that she's stolen
902
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:32,040
from John Rogers and
left him for dead.
903
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,560
Responding officers have
approached Joanna Dennehy.
904
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:36,920
She didn't put up any resistance.
905
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,360
But they got her out of the car,
restrained her, searched her,
906
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,800
and recovered the knife
that we know was used
907
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:45,520
in the attack on John Rogers.
908
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:52,759
So that initial response
secured some vital evidence.
909
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,239
And the arresting officers,
910
00:48:55,240 --> 00:48:57,480
when they cautioned Joanna Dennehy,
911
00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,920
her response was admission
912
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,840
of the fact that she'd killed a man.
913
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,600
And undoubtedly, that was
referring to John Rogers,
914
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,000
{\an8}who she'd just literally
stabbed 30 times.
915
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,560
{\an8}The point of arrest is the
weakest point for a suspect.
916
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:16,000
{\an8}They are likely to say things
that they will not say later.
917
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:17,440
So the fact that she said,
918
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,520
"I admit it, I killed him,"
is very, very significant.
919
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,760
The time scale between
the first stabbing
920
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,040
and the arrest of Joanna
Dennehy was somewhere
921
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,520
in the region of 30 minutes or so.
922
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,680
But, of course, we immediately
knew we were also looking
923
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:40,880
for a second person.
924
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,400
So that suspect hunt must
be conducted diligently
925
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:47,520
and very, very quickly
to protect the public.
926
00:49:49,240 --> 00:49:52,360
And that was done within
literally two hours,
927
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:56,480
Gary Stretch was located near the
village of Armley and detained.
928
00:49:57,920 --> 00:49:59,440
We were pleased
they were in custody.
929
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,800
But we were unclear as to how
930
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,120
and why they were involved
in another incident.
931
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,280
It never occurred to us at that stage
that she was the person that she was.
932
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,239
You then have the
opportunity to reflect.
933
00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:18,760
And it is a fact that an
attempted killing of this nature
934
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:22,920
is very, very rarely perpetrated
by a female offender.
935
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,360
And so there is an
element of surprise.
936
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:30,160
{\an8}Joanne doesn't really conform
to what we expect women to be like.
937
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,000
Quite often in society,
we still see women
938
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:35,560
as the caregivers,
the maternal figures.
939
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:37,840
So when we see them
going out of their way
940
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,320
to show such violence
against other people,
941
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,760
that really does shock
our core beliefs.
942
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:55,240
Once an offender is arrested,
943
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:56,839
they'll be brought to
the police station.
944
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:00,520
And they'll be presented before an
officer known as the custody officer.
945
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:03,679
You have been arrested
on suspicion
946
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,680
of attempted murder and murder, okay?
947
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:09,640
For somebody who just really
seriously attacked two men
948
00:51:09,720 --> 00:51:11,920
on the street, she was joking,
949
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,320
and making light of the fact
that she'd been arrested
950
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:17,120
for both attempted murder and murder.
951
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,040
Would you be cheery if you were up
for attempted murder and murder?
952
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:22,839
- I wouldn't, but-
- No, but I'm still smiling.
953
00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:26,400
Attemopted murder and
murder is nothing.
954
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:29,679
It's like going down
for Sunday Roast.
955
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:30,760
Easy.
956
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:37,079
Joanne is a very
seductive individual.
957
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:41,200
And the CCTV footage shows us just
958
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:45,880
how skilled she is at
being able to manipulate
959
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:49,480
and get what she wants in terms
of interactions from other people.
960
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,080
And not necessarily just men.
961
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:52,320
I love your eyebrows.
962
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:53,920
Thanks.
963
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:59,840
She has the ability to lure
people in with her persona.
964
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:03,239
And she's demonstrating just
how skilled she is with that.
965
00:52:03,240 --> 00:52:07,799
She does have this energy
to her, which is alluring,
966
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:12,040
and which absolutely is
classic femme fatale.
967
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,360
You acted perfectly.
968
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:15,120
Why, thank you.
969
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:16,920
You are a decent copper.
970
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:17,640
Thanks.
971
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:18,759
Remarkable.
972
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:20,920
No guilt at all.
973
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,560
Body language. Just cocky.
974
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:25,320
Center of attention.
975
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:26,800
What's really interesting is
976
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,040
how the police officer's
body language shows
977
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:31,760
that he's responding
to her flirtatiousness.
978
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:33,480
So he's gone from being fairly closed
979
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,120
and fairly standoffish, guarded
980
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:39,440
to actually leaning on the work top,
981
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,200
almost as if the side
by side in a bar.
982
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:47,320
Quite a shocking, shocking video.
983
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,520
Joanne had alleged
that she was abused
984
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:02,439
at some point in her childhood.
985
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:08,879
If the sexual abuse
claims are true,
986
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,040
unprocessed sexual abuse does tend
987
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,440
to present as sexually
provocative behaviour.
988
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:17,000
We do see it with Joanne.
989
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:18,760
She is seductive.
990
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:20,600
She is provocative.
991
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:24,880
That's all she knows in terms
of how to relate to men.
992
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:28,440
But then she is a
pathological liar as well.
993
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,280
We know that she uses lies
to get what she wants.
994
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,279
{\an8}So even though we've got
a really, really good start
995
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:45,319
{\an8}on the investigation,
996
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:47,760
{\an8}we've got Joanna Dennehy in custody,
997
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:48,840
{\an8}there's a knife recovered,
998
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,240
you know that you're dealing
with a very, very serious case.
999
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:55,160
Witness inquiries,
CCTV, house to house,
1000
00:53:55,240 --> 00:53:57,640
fast track actions, forensic actions.
1001
00:53:57,720 --> 00:54:00,599
Whole host of enquiries
have to go on in that stage.
1002
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,120
And what those inquiries
quickly revealed is
1003
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,879
that Joanna Dennehy and Gary Stretch,
1004
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:07,559
in a green Vauxhall Astra,
1005
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:11,560
had driven from Cambridgeshire
across to Herefordshire.
1006
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:13,080
Down the M5.
1007
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:17,599
And then we've got CCTV recovered
from Strensham services.
1008
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,159
That showed Joanna Dennehy
1009
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:22,680
and Gary Stretch walking hand in hand
1010
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:24,920
into Strensham
services very casually.
1011
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:26,959
The interesting thing
1012
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,960
is all these people walking
past her hardly noticed her.
1013
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:33,360
And yet, she's become one
1014
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:35,480
of the most notorious
killers in British history,
1015
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:38,400
and nobody knows, which goes to prove
1016
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,039
that you couldn't tell a killer
if they're standing in front of you.
1017
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:42,480
And that's the shocking thing.
1018
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,120
While Stretch and Dennehy
were effectively on the run,
1019
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,040
they committed a domestic
burglary out in Norfolk.
1020
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,880
And one of the items they took
from that burglary was a camera.
1021
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:57,719
When you look through the images,
1022
00:54:57,720 --> 00:55:01,119
{\an8}they've taken pictures of
each other, of the scenery,
1023
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:04,400
{\an8}as though they're on some
family road trip together.
1024
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,480
It paints the picture of
what Joanna Dennehy referred
1025
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:09,880
to herself as that she wanted really
1026
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:12,719
to be known as Bonnie and
Clyde with Gary Stretch
1027
00:55:12,720 --> 00:55:15,960
and become notorious for
the nature of her offending.
1028
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:19,600
Gary Stretch had
connections to Herefordshire.
1029
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,920
And in particular, to a
man known as Mark Lloyd.
1030
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,480
Gary Stretch and Joanne
Dennehy had been responsible
1031
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:30,480
for stealing items whilst
they were on the run.
1032
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:35,239
They wanted Mark's help
in selling those goods.
1033
00:55:35,240 --> 00:55:37,840
And they believed Mark
could help them do that.
1034
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,520
So Gary Stretch drives
the Vauxhall Astra.
1035
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:47,560
Joanna Dennehy gets in
the front passenger seat.
1036
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:52,519
And they have Mark Lloyd get
into the back of the Vauxhall Astra.
1037
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:54,240
And they travel to Hereford.
1038
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:00,120
They stopped their vehicle
1039
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:03,479
about 200 meters before
that scene of the attack.
1040
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:06,080
And they'd gone into a
local convenience store.
1041
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,160
And what was described by the
store assistant was really,
1042
00:56:09,240 --> 00:56:10,840
really light-hearted banter
1043
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:13,759
between Joanna Dennehy
and that store assistant.
1044
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:17,640
And for me, that says something
about the mindset of an individual,
1045
00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:19,480
who only a minute or so later,
1046
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:22,479
conducts a really
vicious attempted murder
1047
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:23,839
on an innocent man.
1048
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,480
Police are now appealing
for witnesses as they try
1049
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:31,640
to work out why these two
men became the victims
1050
00:56:31,720 --> 00:56:33,640
of a random attack.
1051
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:38,680
I found it very, very
difficult to come to terms
1052
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:41,680
with how anybody could
attack a stranger
1053
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:44,600
in broad daylight in the
street for no reason.
1054
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:47,560
There was no attempt to be secretive
1055
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:49,760
or to cover up these crimes
1056
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:51,640
or be particularly sophisticated
1057
00:56:51,720 --> 00:56:53,320
in the way that they're committed.
1058
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:56,640
I've investigated major crime
1059
00:56:56,720 --> 00:57:00,039
where offenders are
taking great lengths
1060
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,440
to protect their identities
1061
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:06,559
to cover up their involvement
in any type of crime.
1062
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:09,280
This wasn't one of those
sorts of instances.
1063
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:12,920
Joanne thrived on excitement.
1064
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:14,680
And she was intelligent enough
1065
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,519
to know she will
eventually have been caught
1066
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:19,000
for her behavior.
1067
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:21,960
But the excitement
whilst this was happening
1068
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,480
would've been a more
significant draw for her.
1069
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:26,839
My honest thoughts are
1070
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:28,680
that I think she
enjoyed being in prison.
1071
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,000
So, actually, for her,
there's not really a lot to lose.
1072
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:32,640
I think she wanted to be caught.
1073
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,320
{\an8}The human element of what we
respond to is not lost on us.
1074
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:40,200
{\an8}And in my personal view,
1075
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:44,120
{\an8}it was due to the pure
professionalism of paramedics,
1076
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,800
{\an8}and, obviously, staff at the hospital
1077
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:49,680
who saved Mr. Rogers
life in particular
1078
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:52,600
because his injuries
were really significant.
1079
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:56,960
And, of course, Mr. Breza's
injuries were really serious too.
1080
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:12,599
I've got the added consideration
of liaising with my counterpart,
1081
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:13,960
the senior investigating officer
1082
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:16,920
in the Bedfordshire
Cambridgeshire Hertfordshire
1083
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:18,520
major investigation unit,
1084
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:20,760
who've already
circulated Joanna Dennehy
1085
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,160
as wanted for the
murder of Kevin Lee,
1086
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:25,959
whose body was discovered
on the 30th of March.
1087
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:42,440
We were expecting, at some point,
1088
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:44,320
to be engaged with
West Mercia Police
1089
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:47,360
{\an8}to make arrangements to
bring Stretch and Dennehy
1090
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:48,640
{\an8}into custody into Cambridgeshire
1091
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:51,600
{\an8}so that we could interview
them for Kevin Lee's murder.
1092
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:55,080
But it was on the morning of
Wednesday, the 3rd of April
1093
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,080
that farmers had located two bodies
1094
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:00,840
in a ditch in Thorney
Dyke, which is some miles
1095
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:03,080
from where Kevin
Lee's body was found.
1096
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:06,600
But nevertheless, these bodies were
found in similar circumstances.
1097
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:08,000
And it's that stage that we knew
1098
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:09,680
that we were dealing
with a serial killer.
1099
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:16,720
The bodies were
ultimately recovered.
1100
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:18,439
And the identity of one of them
1101
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:21,160
was quickly established
as John Chapman.
1102
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:23,640
It became apparent that
his phone had been taken
1103
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:25,960
by Stretch and Dennehy
and had been used
1104
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:28,440
by them throughout the period of time
that they were on the run.
1105
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:32,680
And we knew therefore, that
he had become a victim,
1106
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:34,000
rather than being a suspect
1107
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:37,000
and an associate of
Stretch and Dennehy's.
1108
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,960
As a consequence of there
being no defensive wounds
1109
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:43,120
to John Chapman's hands or arms,
1110
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:45,400
so we believe that he was
stabbed on the mattress
1111
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:47,720
that was found
subsequently in the garden
1112
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:48,960
whilst he was either asleep
1113
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:52,200
or unconscious due to
significant alcohol consumption.
1114
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:56,680
The entire gravity of
this homicide is reflected
1115
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:58,920
in the post-mortem report.
1116
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:01,760
He was stabbed five
times in the chest.
1117
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:03,840
Two stabs penetrated the heart.
1118
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:07,280
One stab was so powerful, it
went through the breastbone.
1119
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:10,000
One stab severing the carotid artery.
1120
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:11,440
He died without a struggle.
1121
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:15,480
That is a ferocious murderous attack.
1122
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:43,680
We found out one of
the bodies was John.
1123
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:47,120
{\an8}And that's when all the press
from the world came round.
1124
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:50,999
Television, cameras, reporters.
1125
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:52,400
You know, everywhere we went,
1126
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:55,040
it's all like, oh my days.
1127
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:56,520
Media circus.
1128
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:02,640
John was well loved and well liked
around this community here.
1129
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:05,719
He really was.
1130
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:08,160
He didn't realize how
much he was loved.
1131
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:11,520
Although he was a heavy drinker,
1132
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:15,080
John Chapman's neighbors say
he was never any trouble.
1133
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:17,360
He was all right.
He was harmless.
1134
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:19,040
{\an8}Because he was drunk all the time.
1135
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:23,200
{\an8}And just say hello and
he'd stagger on by.
1136
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:30,919
The other individual was a person
1137
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:34,240
that was subsequently identified
as Lukasz Slaboszewski.
1138
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:37,840
He was somebody that we had not come
across before in our investigation.
1139
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:41,800
Lukasz was a Polish national
living in Peterborough.
1140
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:44,880
He was last seen alive at just
1141
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:48,040
after five past seven
on the 19th of March
1142
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:50,520
on some CCTV footage in Lincoln Road,
1143
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:52,120
which was near to where he lived.
1144
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,239
Telephone data suggests at 7:36,
1145
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:59,200
Lukasz calls Dennehy's phone
from the Dogsthorpe area,
1146
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:01,200
where Rolleston Garth is located.
1147
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:05,040
We think that an
arrangement had been made
1148
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:09,200
for Lukasz to see Joanna
at Rolleston Garth.
1149
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:13,480
And it was there that she lured him
into the house and then killed him.
1150
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:21,200
Slaboweszki was clearly
the ideal victim for Dennehy.
1151
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:22,880
{\an8}He was living by himself.
1152
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:26,280
{\an8}He had a very little social circle.
1153
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:30,000
And therefore, he didn't really
have anyone to protect him.
1154
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:32,600
Following Lukasz's murder,
1155
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:36,120
his body was moved from
Rolleston Garth to a wheelie bin,
1156
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:39,360
where it stayed for a couple of days
before it was ultimately deposited
1157
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:41,120
in the ditch over at Thorney Dyke.
1158
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:46,120
We're unable to say for certain
1159
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:47,760
how Lukasz's body was moved
1160
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:49,799
from Rolleston Garth
into the wheelie bin.
1161
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:50,839
But given the weight,
1162
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:54,280
I suspect that Joanne Dennehy
didn't do that on her own.
1163
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:57,400
It's very likely that Stretch
assisted and maybe others.
1164
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:18,520
Joanne was very much in control
1165
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:21,720
when it came to the dynamic
between her and Gary Stretch.
1166
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:23,080
He was a big man.
1167
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:26,600
He had his own criminal involvement.
1168
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:28,560
But really, the driving force
1169
01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:30,640
and the mastermind
and the decision maker
1170
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:32,840
in this relationship was Dennehy.
1171
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:37,080
I think he'd have done
anything she wanted him to do.
1172
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:38,720
He was under her spell.
1173
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:41,599
And ultimately, when
you're in that position,
1174
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:42,639
your boundaries are lost.
1175
01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:44,399
{\an8}You don't really know
what you are doing.
1176
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:46,840
{\an8}You are making decisions
based on what they want.
1177
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:51,240
Females that are involved
in killing largely tend
1178
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:53,920
to operate in a secondary capacity.
1179
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:56,200
They tend to be a facilitator.
1180
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:58,480
They tend to serve as an accessory.
1181
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:01,000
Rarely do we come across
females that kill,
1182
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:04,320
that operate primarily,
independently,
1183
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:05,920
with minimal supervision,
1184
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,720
and in fact, have men
as their subordinates.
1185
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:14,880
When we look into
what femme fatale means,
1186
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:18,559
yes, it talks about
women's attractiveness
1187
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:21,159
and women's ability to seduce.
1188
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:23,720
But it also talks about the darkness
1189
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,199
that female energy can also have.
1190
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:29,040
And that can be used to draw men
1191
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:32,760
to do things that they
wouldn't ordinarily have done.
1192
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:36,880
And Joanne demonstrated that quite
clearly with her accomplices.
1193
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:52,080
Jo's sister rang me.
1194
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:54,840
Because I don't really
watch TV at all.
1195
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:57,640
Anything negative,
news, I don't touch it.
1196
01:04:57,720 --> 01:04:59,719
She's rang me to say, "Have
you seen the news and that?"
1197
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:00,759
{\an8}I'm like, "No."
1198
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:02,039
{\an8}She's like, "I've got
something to tell you."
1199
01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:03,560
{\an8}And that's how I found out.
1200
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:10,040
I just remember like, seeing
weird people pull up in a car.
1201
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:12,680
And I'm thinking, what's going on?
1202
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:15,559
It was all people wanting
your story, newspapers.
1203
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:17,079
I got both the kids out the school.
1204
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:19,279
And the head teacher even
drove me home the back way
1205
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:20,359
to get them out of the way.
1206
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:21,960
Because I didn't want them...
1207
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:24,480
It's like staying out of
a film, if I'm honest.
1208
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:27,160
I kind of made the mistake
1209
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:30,240
of not being honest with
my daughter at first.
1210
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:31,720
I should have just said, look, here.
1211
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:33,079
This is what she's done.
1212
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:35,360
I tried to protect her, in a way.
1213
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:37,240
That's my own fault, really.
1214
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:46,080
{\an8}The press were there,
so I had to get walked to my house
1215
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:47,920
with my dad's beanie over my head.
1216
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:49,240
I didn't really know
what was going on.
1217
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:50,520
So it was scary.
1218
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:53,279
She's done what she's done.
1219
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:54,920
And she's not thought about
1220
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:56,560
what she's brought into
the world or anything
1221
01:05:56,640 --> 01:05:59,480
and what it's going to do
to them or any of that.
1222
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:15,160
My mum picked me up from school
and it come on the radio
1223
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:20,319
that Joanna had done
these awful crimes.
1224
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:21,760
{\an8}And I just like, sat there
1225
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:23,479
{\an8}and me and my mum
looked at each other.
1226
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:24,640
{\an8}And I was like, "What?"
1227
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:26,639
You know, when you're
like just disbelief.
1228
01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:28,520
I just kept going, mum,
that could have been us.
1229
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:32,320
To find out that I'd stayed
in the same house with this woman
1230
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:35,440
and that she's just done these awful
crimes just makes me feel sick.
1231
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:37,160
Even now, that's just awful.
1232
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:39,640
I had nightmares for months
1233
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:43,000
because I would just have this vision
of the outside of my bedroom door
1234
01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:44,520
and her just being outside.
1235
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:48,120
I feel really, really angry with her
1236
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:52,720
because we were probably just
a blip in her little world.
1237
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:54,960
But that stayed with me.
1238
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:57,520
And I'll always
remember that time that,
1239
01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:00,000
you know, she was under
the same roof as all of us.
1240
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:12,720
So whilst we were running the
major investigation from Hereford,
1241
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:16,040
at the forefront
of my mind is the suspect interviews.
1242
01:07:16,120 --> 01:07:17,200
Given the nature of offending,
1243
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:20,840
we had some doctors to
assess Joanna Dennehy.
1244
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:23,720
And the assessments indicated
1245
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:25,520
that she was not fit
to be interviewed.
1246
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:27,960
And she was sectioned
under the Mental Health Act
1247
01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:32,640
and sent to Arden Lee Institution
for further assessments
1248
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:34,560
to be undertaken into
her mental state.
1249
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:39,600
As those assessments
are being arranged
1250
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:42,120
in the custody block,
I remember thinking,
1251
01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:45,000
what does a serial killer look like?
1252
01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:50,839
To see one in the
flesh and to be struck
1253
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:51,959
by that realization really,
1254
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:54,600
that it just looks like
any other normal woman
1255
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:55,960
that might be walking the streets.
1256
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:02,600
Ultimately, she was
assessed and then rearrested
1257
01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:05,000
and taken to a police
station for questioning.
1258
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:10,000
By that stage, we'd already made
decisions about Gary Stretch.
1259
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:12,120
He'd been charged with
two attempted murders.
1260
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:14,959
He provided a version
of his own events.
1261
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:15,999
So he did speak.
1262
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:18,760
But denied any
involvement or knowledge
1263
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:22,120
in the attempted murders,
stating that he wasn't aware
1264
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:24,880
that Joanna Dennehy was
going to attack anybody.
1265
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:30,400
He wasn't just a hapless helper.
1266
01:08:30,480 --> 01:08:32,640
That's what he wanted
us all to believe.
1267
01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:34,360
{\an8}No, he did way more than that.
1268
01:08:34,440 --> 01:08:37,280
{\an8}He knew exactly what Joanne
Dennehy was capable of.
1269
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:39,879
It soon became apparent
1270
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:42,040
that Leslie Layton
hadn't told the truth.
1271
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:43,760
He's a bit of a sad individual.
1272
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:46,199
I think probably of a weak character.
1273
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:47,640
And I don't think he had the courage
1274
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:51,760
to refuse the requests
of Dennehy and Stretch.
1275
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:56,120
{\an8}He was involved in the burning
out of Kevin Lee's Mondeo
1276
01:08:56,200 --> 01:08:57,280
{\an8}following his murder
1277
01:08:57,360 --> 01:09:00,400
and was also responsible,
along with Stretch and Dennehy,
1278
01:09:00,480 --> 01:09:02,320
for the deposition
of Kevin Lee's body
1279
01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:03,800
and also that of John Chapman.
1280
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:10,480
Mark Lloyd was dealt with
for handling stolen goods,
1281
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:15,000
but became a crucial
witness for the prosecution
1282
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:18,040
in describing what
occurred inside that car
1283
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:19,920
during the two attacks in Hereford.
1284
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:36,760
{\an8}So when we finally got to
interview Joanna Dennehy,
1285
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:39,120
{\an8}she went, "No comment,"
which is her right.
1286
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:44,160
Joanne Dennehy and Gary
Stretch were subsequently charged
1287
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:46,400
with offences associated
with the murders
1288
01:09:46,480 --> 01:09:50,160
of Kevin Lee, Lukasz Slaboszewski,
and John Chapman.
1289
01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:52,399
Joanne Dennehy pleaded not guilty.
1290
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:55,000
Obviously, then that puts the
pressure on the investigation team
1291
01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:57,280
to make sure we've got
sufficient evidence
1292
01:09:57,360 --> 01:09:59,880
to prove that case beyond
all reasonable doubt.
1293
01:10:00,480 --> 01:10:04,120
We were preparing for a
lengthy trial at the Old Bailey.
1294
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:09,160
What we have to do is build
that sequence of events,
1295
01:10:09,240 --> 01:10:13,000
that storyline that will
prove the involvement
1296
01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:15,880
of Joanna Dennehy,
Gary Stretch, and others
1297
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:17,520
{\an8}in offenses that have been committed.
1298
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:23,680
We also need to look at
why she did what she did.
1299
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:28,240
Joanne Dennehy is the
only female murderer
1300
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:30,960
that I've ever come across that
has murdered so many people
1301
01:10:31,040 --> 01:10:32,480
in such a short space of time.
1302
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:37,720
Something about her
character meant that
1303
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:39,480
that was always her destiny.
1304
01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:44,080
But what I struggle
with is the moment
1305
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:46,160
at which that button was pressed.
1306
01:10:46,240 --> 01:10:49,799
The moment at which she
committed that first murder,
1307
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:53,120
which was in essence,
her first step along the line
1308
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:57,400
to becoming a very notorious
female serial killer.
1309
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:13,919
The first victim here,
1310
01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:17,359
Lukasz Slaboszewski,
was a Polish guy.
1311
01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:18,520
31 years old.
1312
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:21,760
And he was in a mall where he bumped
1313
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:23,880
into Joanne Dennehy
for the first time.
1314
01:11:25,800 --> 01:11:29,640
Joanne Dennehy lured
Lukasz round to a bedsit.
1315
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:35,000
He thought that he had started
a romantic relationship with her.
1316
01:11:35,080 --> 01:11:37,320
He'd even sent a text to friends
1317
01:11:37,400 --> 01:11:38,440
and family to let them know
1318
01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:40,880
that he had met this
wonderful English woman
1319
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:42,960
who was going to be his
girlfriend, he hoped.
1320
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:49,120
The minute Lukasz
walked through the door
1321
01:11:49,200 --> 01:11:50,760
and got as far as the kitchen,
1322
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:55,040
she plunged a five-inch
lock knife into his heart.
1323
01:11:57,720 --> 01:11:59,360
He's quite a big guy.
1324
01:11:59,440 --> 01:12:02,360
The ferocity of that girl plunging
1325
01:12:02,440 --> 01:12:07,040
that knife into that man
once into the heart in one go
1326
01:12:07,120 --> 01:12:10,000
and overpowering him
is almost something
1327
01:12:10,080 --> 01:12:11,400
out of a horror film.
1328
01:12:13,040 --> 01:12:15,760
Putting the body in
a bin was, for her,
1329
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:18,800
a way of just disposing
of something meaningless.
1330
01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:22,160
She's just discarded of him
like trash, hasn't she, literally.
1331
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:31,240
After that first murder,
1332
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:34,840
Joanne is said to have told someone
that she got a liking for it.
1333
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:38,840
She really found it quite moreish
and she wanted another taste.
1334
01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:42,840
I expect the first kill
1335
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:45,399
gave her something
she wasn't expecting.
1336
01:12:45,400 --> 01:12:48,280
That sense of release,
that catharsis.
1337
01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:51,280
So I think that the
shame and the guilt
1338
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:54,280
and the pain and the humiliation
1339
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:56,240
that she's been holding onto
1340
01:12:56,320 --> 01:12:58,960
for her entire life was
suddenly projected out
1341
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:01,840
into another person through
that penetration of the stab.
1342
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:03,200
And that's why it's moreish.
1343
01:13:03,280 --> 01:13:06,280
Because then, she's looking
for that release again.
1344
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:11,680
Joanne Dennehy was
somebody, without question,
1345
01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:13,960
driven by a blood lust.
1346
01:13:14,040 --> 01:13:17,600
And she murdered on that first
occasion for whatever reason.
1347
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:21,440
And after that, it was almost
as if a button had been pressed.
1348
01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:23,720
And she wasn't going to stop
until she'd been arrested.
1349
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:43,800
John Chapman was
Dennehy's second victim.
1350
01:13:44,840 --> 01:13:47,840
He was fast asleep
with a drink in his bed.
1351
01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:50,840
Joanne Dennehy crept into his room,
1352
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:52,400
pulled his sheet back,
1353
01:13:52,480 --> 01:13:55,640
and stabbed him multiple times
in the chest, the heart, the neck.
1354
01:13:57,640 --> 01:13:59,720
I think the choice of
weapon is really significant.
1355
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:01,800
There's something about a knife,
1356
01:14:01,880 --> 01:14:03,200
something about the sharpness of it,
1357
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:06,160
the stabbing that
is arousing for her.
1358
01:14:06,240 --> 01:14:08,600
The interesting thing
with stabbing someone is
1359
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:11,160
that you have to get
up close and personal.
1360
01:14:11,240 --> 01:14:15,160
So I can imagine that the
process of that, for her,
1361
01:14:15,240 --> 01:14:17,920
was thrilling in that
she was actually able
1362
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:21,920
to see the confusion and the fear
in people's faces as she did that.
1363
01:14:28,800 --> 01:14:31,600
Before she even moved John's body,
1364
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:34,000
she's moved on to her next victim.
1365
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:42,520
She arranged to meet
up with Kevin Lee.
1366
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:45,960
And they'd been texting about
what she's gonna do to him.
1367
01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:51,280
And there's a bit of talk about she's
gonna dress him up and rape him.
1368
01:14:52,280 --> 01:14:54,880
There's a fantasy there
being the one with the power.
1369
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:56,959
The one who's going
to do the penetrating.
1370
01:14:58,040 --> 01:14:59,920
But she ends up murdering him.
1371
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:03,720
Stabbing him five times in the chest,
puncturing his lungs.
1372
01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:11,960
By this point, Dennehy
is on the news already.
1373
01:15:12,040 --> 01:15:14,520
There is a manhunt underway for her.
1374
01:15:14,600 --> 01:15:17,000
Police are appealing for
help in tracing two people
1375
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:19,840
in connection with the murder
of a man in Peterborough.
1376
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:23,680
She tells Gary Stretch
that she wants more.
1377
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:27,120
She wants to commit
further acts of violence.
1378
01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:28,480
She is making comments.
1379
01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:31,040
You know, "You've had your fun, Gary,
I want mine.
1380
01:15:31,120 --> 01:15:33,160
I don't want a woman.
I don't want a child.
1381
01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:35,520
Find me someone to kill."
1382
01:15:35,600 --> 01:15:38,400
She's very excited for what
she's about to experience.
1383
01:15:42,080 --> 01:15:44,359
Gary Stretch pointed
to Robin Bereza
1384
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:46,520
and said to Joanne
Dennehy, "Will he do?"
1385
01:15:49,160 --> 01:15:51,920
Once the call came in
for the initial stabbing,
1386
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:55,239
within minutes, literally,
there's another stabbing.
1387
01:15:55,240 --> 01:15:56,360
John Rogers.
1388
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:04,840
The fact that they're all
male victims is not random.
1389
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:05,960
She wanted men.
1390
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:08,720
It's about overpowering the men.
1391
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:10,600
It's about her taking her power back.
1392
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:13,480
Murderers and serial killers
1393
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:16,120
and offenders are normally victims
1394
01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:17,960
before they become criminals.
1395
01:16:18,040 --> 01:16:19,040
They were a victim first.
1396
01:16:19,120 --> 01:16:20,640
That's what's led
them down this path.
1397
01:16:21,520 --> 01:16:24,840
She's been diagnosed with
psychopathic personality disorder.
1398
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:26,879
And she's also got a diagnosis
1399
01:16:26,880 --> 01:16:29,360
of emotionally unstable
personality disorder,
1400
01:16:29,440 --> 01:16:31,200
which will make her
much more sensitive
1401
01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:32,600
to the world around her.
1402
01:16:32,680 --> 01:16:34,999
Emotionally more unstable.
1403
01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:36,640
I think the deadly part
1404
01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:40,880
of the situation here is
that psychopathic element.
1405
01:16:40,960 --> 01:16:43,000
Because if she had the empathy,
1406
01:16:43,080 --> 01:16:44,480
this wouldn't have led to murder.
1407
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:45,600
It would have been violent.
1408
01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:46,680
She might have hurt someone.
1409
01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:48,160
She might have felt bad for it.
1410
01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:49,440
But actually, when you put
1411
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:53,800
in there the psychopathic
traits, unfortunately,
1412
01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:56,760
that's just an absolutely
lethal combination, isn't it?
1413
01:17:11,960 --> 01:17:13,440
On the first day of the trial,
1414
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:16,080
witnesses were getting
ready to give evidence
1415
01:17:16,160 --> 01:17:20,320
when Joanna Dennehy changed her plea
from not guilty to guilty.
1416
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:25,720
We were all shocked.
1417
01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:28,800
Her pleas today
stunned her defense team,
1418
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:31,800
who said it wasn't something
they'd anticipated.
1419
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:34,760
"I've pleaded guilty
and that's that,"
1420
01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:36,640
Dennehy told the court.
1421
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:39,760
She later objected to her
lawyers being given time
1422
01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:41,920
to check her guilty pleas.
1423
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:44,360
"I'm not coming back
down here again just
1424
01:17:44,440 --> 01:17:47,080
to say the same stuff,"
she told the court.
1425
01:17:47,160 --> 01:17:48,520
"It's a long way to come
1426
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:51,520
to say the same thing
I've just said."
1427
01:17:52,200 --> 01:17:55,279
I don't believe her
entering that guilty plea
1428
01:17:55,280 --> 01:17:57,760
was her showing remorse.
1429
01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:00,680
That was her exercising, in her mind,
1430
01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:04,120
further control over the
criminal justice system.
1431
01:18:04,200 --> 01:18:07,040
This was the
ultimate stage for her.
1432
01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:10,640
Being able to control
the proceedings at court.
1433
01:18:10,720 --> 01:18:14,320
Being able to create a
drama and a theater where,
1434
01:18:14,400 --> 01:18:16,720
once again, she's the
center of attention.
1435
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:19,280
It was almost her final swan song.
1436
01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:23,320
I think she knew the
evidence was damning.
1437
01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:26,359
She knew she was going to go to jail.
1438
01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:30,240
And her pleading guilty is her
taking control of that situation.
1439
01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:32,120
It's saying, "I am guilty.
Take me down."
1440
01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:35,720
It's not allowing someone else
to make a judgment on her.
1441
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:37,040
She just can't have that.
1442
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:41,200
Despite the fact that
Joanna Dennehy pleaded guilty,
1443
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:42,360
there was still a trial to be had
1444
01:18:42,440 --> 01:18:46,200
at crown court for other
offenders who had aided, abetted.
1445
01:18:46,280 --> 01:18:49,280
Ultimately, all were found guilty.
1446
01:18:50,360 --> 01:18:52,000
Stretch was jailed for life
1447
01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:54,879
and must serve at least 19 years.
1448
01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:57,760
Leslie Layton was
sentenced to 14 years
1449
01:18:57,840 --> 01:18:59,160
for the part he played.
1450
01:19:03,400 --> 01:19:07,840
Joanna Dennehy was sentenced
the following year, 2014.
1451
01:19:09,400 --> 01:19:12,919
These events had such long-term
traumatic impact
1452
01:19:12,920 --> 01:19:14,280
on both of these Hereford victims.
1453
01:19:14,360 --> 01:19:17,280
It was actually commented upon
by the judge in sentencing.
1454
01:19:18,400 --> 01:19:21,440
Robin Bereza
described what happened.
1455
01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:24,160
This is from his statement.
1456
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:28,240
"I did not immediately realize
that I was being attacked.
1457
01:19:28,320 --> 01:19:30,880
I turned around and saw this lady.
1458
01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:33,319
She just stared straight through me.
1459
01:19:33,320 --> 01:19:36,320
I asked her, what are you doing?
1460
01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:38,840
She said, 'I'm hurting you.
1461
01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:40,640
I'm gonna fucking kill you.'"
1462
01:19:43,600 --> 01:19:48,600
This is what John
Rogers told the judge.
1463
01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:51,360
"I saw the woman who had struck me,
just standing there.
1464
01:19:52,320 --> 01:19:54,400
She started stabbing me in the chest.
1465
01:19:54,880 --> 01:19:56,600
I was just waiting for it to stop.
1466
01:19:57,520 --> 01:19:59,240
There was loads and loads of blood.
1467
01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:02,200
And as I lay there, I thought,
1468
01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:04,440
this is where I'm going to die."
1469
01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:10,960
The judge considered
her to be so dangerous
1470
01:20:11,040 --> 01:20:13,120
and her offending to be so severe
1471
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:15,240
that she was subject
of a whole life order.
1472
01:20:15,320 --> 01:20:18,000
And what that means is that
she will never be released.
1473
01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:24,520
The judge
said she was a cruel,
1474
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:27,960
calculating and
manipulative serial killer.
1475
01:20:28,040 --> 01:20:30,240
She will die in jail for her crimes.
1476
01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:33,520
Even after Dennehy was
told she'd spend the rest
1477
01:20:33,600 --> 01:20:37,560
of her life in prison, her
reaction was simply to laugh.
1478
01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:40,400
We saw what sort of person
Joanne Dennehy is today.
1479
01:20:41,280 --> 01:20:44,160
Constantly smiling in
front of bereaved families
1480
01:20:44,400 --> 01:20:46,600
{\an8}at times when she showed nothing
1481
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:48,760
{\an8}but utter disrespect for
everything and everybody
1482
01:20:48,840 --> 01:20:50,160
{\an8}in that courtroom today.
1483
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:52,920
{\an8}The fact that she'll
never see daylight again
1484
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:56,200
{\an8}in the outside world is of
huge comfort for the family.
1485
01:20:56,280 --> 01:20:58,360
And while I don't measure success
1486
01:20:58,440 --> 01:21:00,840
of any investigation on prison time,
1487
01:21:00,920 --> 01:21:03,520
in this case, for Joanne Dennehy,
1488
01:21:03,600 --> 01:21:06,520
it's absolutely the right thing
that she won't come out of prison.
1489
01:21:12,120 --> 01:21:14,680
Dennehy became only
the third woman in the UK
1490
01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:17,080
to ever be given life without parole.
1491
01:21:17,160 --> 01:21:20,439
The other two being Myra
Hindley and Rosemary West.
1492
01:21:20,440 --> 01:21:23,600
And so that really shows
the gravity of her crimes
1493
01:21:23,680 --> 01:21:26,000
and the seriousness of her offending.
1494
01:21:27,360 --> 01:21:29,680
Joanne will have
known that she was going
1495
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:31,360
to prison for a long time.
1496
01:21:31,440 --> 01:21:35,080
But in her mind, that's probably
the next part of her story.
1497
01:21:37,800 --> 01:21:41,679
She can go back in with
the power and notoriety.
1498
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:43,160
Everyone fears her.
1499
01:21:43,240 --> 01:21:45,640
No one's going to hurt her again.
1500
01:21:48,720 --> 01:21:52,960
I can only think that she would
consider that a badge of honor.
1501
01:21:53,720 --> 01:21:57,200
Prison is her environment now
1502
01:21:57,280 --> 01:22:01,360
where she will need
to negotiate and learn
1503
01:22:01,440 --> 01:22:05,280
and find ways of
entertaining herself.
1504
01:22:05,360 --> 01:22:08,879
So the behaviors that Joanne will
have exhibited in the community
1505
01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:11,360
will still be exhibited in prison.
1506
01:22:13,600 --> 01:22:16,560
She's a high risk to
everybody in prison.
1507
01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:18,880
We know that whatever that
fantasy is in her head,
1508
01:22:18,960 --> 01:22:21,440
she's more than
willing to act upon it.
1509
01:22:31,880 --> 01:22:33,680
So after she was sentenced,
1510
01:22:33,760 --> 01:22:35,720
my dad still had a lot of questions.
1511
01:22:35,800 --> 01:22:37,120
"Why did you do this?"
1512
01:22:37,200 --> 01:22:38,600
So he wrote to her.
1513
01:22:38,680 --> 01:22:40,840
And she sent this letter back to him.
1514
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:43,640
She starts off by saying,
1515
01:22:43,720 --> 01:22:45,360
"You're the last person
I expected to hear from."
1516
01:22:45,440 --> 01:22:47,440
And then she starts like,
degrading him,
1517
01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:49,000
putting him down, you know.
1518
01:22:49,080 --> 01:22:51,200
Saying he's lazy and
he's got no confidence.
1519
01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:54,160
And it's like, she's trying
to obtain that power.
1520
01:22:54,240 --> 01:22:55,800
You know, I'm still
wearing the trousers.
1521
01:22:56,960 --> 01:22:59,040
She goes into quite a lot of detail
1522
01:22:59,120 --> 01:23:01,000
on how she manipulated these men
1523
01:23:01,080 --> 01:23:03,519
and how she done her killings.
1524
01:23:06,040 --> 01:23:08,680
How she had a plan to seduce Kev.
1525
01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:10,000
What she left out for him to wear.
1526
01:23:10,080 --> 01:23:11,160
A little black dress.
1527
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:13,600
She had Elvis playing
in the background
1528
01:23:13,680 --> 01:23:17,840
while she humiliated and killed him.
1529
01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:25,240
Dennehy told others that the reason
that she murdered men was
1530
01:23:25,320 --> 01:23:29,160
because of unwanted sexual
attention from them.
1531
01:23:29,240 --> 01:23:31,919
Personally, I just think
that's a convenient excuse.
1532
01:23:31,920 --> 01:23:34,560
I think she was somebody
that enjoyed it.
1533
01:23:35,400 --> 01:23:39,040
She mentions here that she doesn't
see Kevin and Lukasz as victims.
1534
01:23:39,080 --> 01:23:40,520
If anything, she's a victim.
1535
01:23:42,720 --> 01:23:45,280
And she doesn't regret
taking their lives at all.
1536
01:23:46,760 --> 01:23:48,879
Once she'd murdered one person,
1537
01:23:48,880 --> 01:23:51,039
I think it was a blood
lust that drove her.
1538
01:23:51,040 --> 01:23:53,000
And I think she needed
to find an excuse
1539
01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:56,080
to justify why she did what she did.
1540
01:23:56,160 --> 01:23:58,600
She was a woman, in my view,
1541
01:23:58,680 --> 01:24:02,560
who was driven by the
power that being able
1542
01:24:02,640 --> 01:24:04,920
to inflict serious
injury on others had
1543
01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:06,760
and the pleasure that it gave her.
1544
01:24:09,040 --> 01:24:10,560
She dives in here by saying
1545
01:24:10,640 --> 01:24:12,680
that she went guilty straight away
1546
01:24:12,760 --> 01:24:14,080
because it meant that her reasons
1547
01:24:14,160 --> 01:24:16,399
for what she did will
always remain with her.
1548
01:24:16,400 --> 01:24:18,280
You know, it's my secret.
1549
01:24:18,360 --> 01:24:20,199
She must think that little of those
1550
01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:22,920
that she's affected to not be
able to give them the truth.
1551
01:24:23,760 --> 01:24:27,200
Joanne won't care who
will still be suffering.
1552
01:24:27,280 --> 01:24:30,680
For her, it's about having
the ultimate control.
1553
01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:33,959
She wants the world to
think the worst of her.
1554
01:24:33,960 --> 01:24:35,920
She wants the world
to be scared of her.
1555
01:24:36,000 --> 01:24:37,760
"I've done many
things to many people.
1556
01:24:37,840 --> 01:24:39,839
But I do not regret killing them.
1557
01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:41,440
Good luck, thank you,
and goodbye, Joanne."
1558
01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:44,239
And then she's signed it with a star.
1559
01:24:51,480 --> 01:24:56,440
Whilst this documentary is about
the monster that Dennehy was and is,
1560
01:24:56,520 --> 01:24:58,480
we must never forget that, you know,
1561
01:24:58,560 --> 01:25:02,080
Lukasz and John and
Kevin were all victims
1562
01:25:02,160 --> 01:25:04,280
that didn't deserve
what happened to them.
1563
01:25:05,040 --> 01:25:07,560
{\an8}Joanna Dennehy has
taken over our lives
1564
01:25:08,760 --> 01:25:11,520
{\an8}and has callously created a
hole that cannot be filled.
1565
01:25:12,360 --> 01:25:15,200
{\an8}She tried to humiliate Kevin
in a way that wasn't deserved.
1566
01:25:17,920 --> 01:25:19,760
She killed three innocent men.
1567
01:25:21,680 --> 01:25:23,320
Kevin Lee will never
see his kids grow up.
1568
01:25:24,240 --> 01:25:26,120
And Lukasz Slaboszewski
would never get a chance
1569
01:25:26,200 --> 01:25:27,640
to get married, to have kids.
1570
01:25:28,680 --> 01:25:32,360
And John would never get a
chance to grow old gracefully.
1571
01:25:33,200 --> 01:25:35,680
She took that away from
everyone that knew them.
1572
01:25:38,720 --> 01:25:41,160
Both victims of these
horrific knife attacks
1573
01:25:41,240 --> 01:25:46,240
in Hereford were not only
physically injured severely,
1574
01:25:46,480 --> 01:25:49,479
but also mentally traumatised.
1575
01:25:49,480 --> 01:25:54,160
Robin Bereza was very dramatically
impacted psychologically.
1576
01:25:55,120 --> 01:25:57,560
The second victim, John Rogers,
1577
01:25:57,640 --> 01:26:00,160
wasn't in the best of
health at that time.
1578
01:26:00,920 --> 01:26:02,159
The strange thing, I found,
1579
01:26:02,160 --> 01:26:05,399
is when I sat down
with John at his home
1580
01:26:05,400 --> 01:26:08,999
that this had the opposite
effect that it had on Robin.
1581
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:11,440
He actually valued his life more
1582
01:26:11,520 --> 01:26:16,359
and became more conscious of
healthy living, healthy eating.
1583
01:26:16,360 --> 01:26:20,119
And it was fantastic
to see him recover.
1584
01:26:20,120 --> 01:26:22,720
It's very, very rare,
as a police officer,
1585
01:26:22,800 --> 01:26:26,160
that you see some good come
out of a really bad situation.
1586
01:26:26,240 --> 01:26:27,560
But in this case, it did.
1587
01:26:27,640 --> 01:26:32,640
And then it was so, so sad
that a short time later,
1588
01:26:32,680 --> 01:26:34,960
John caught cancer and passed away.
1589
01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:54,839
I don't know there's
a word to use for her.
1590
01:26:54,840 --> 01:26:56,319
Everybody says monster.
1591
01:26:56,320 --> 01:26:58,919
But it's more than just a monster.
1592
01:26:58,920 --> 01:27:00,040
It's more than that.
1593
01:27:02,720 --> 01:27:05,800
If what she wanted was
to go down in history
1594
01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:09,119
as this sadistic, masochistic,
1595
01:27:09,120 --> 01:27:12,400
female iconic serial killer,
1596
01:27:12,960 --> 01:27:16,440
then in a way,
she's got what she wanted
1597
01:27:16,520 --> 01:27:19,040
because people won't
forget her in a hurry.
1598
01:27:21,480 --> 01:27:22,840
She belongs in hell.
1599
01:27:24,400 --> 01:27:26,080
May she rot in hell.
1600
01:27:30,960 --> 01:27:34,320
You do think about the people
that she's done what she's done to.
1601
01:27:34,400 --> 01:27:36,160
You know, it doesn't
leave your brain.
1602
01:27:36,240 --> 01:27:38,479
Because, you know,
I've got my daughters, I'm alive.
1603
01:27:38,480 --> 01:27:40,560
And everything's okay in that sense.
1604
01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:46,120
But for them, that's a
lifetime of hurt, isn't it?
1605
01:27:48,800 --> 01:27:50,279
That's when you were just born.
1606
01:27:50,280 --> 01:27:51,640
Look how tiny you are.
1607
01:27:54,280 --> 01:27:57,200
I was two and a half the
last time I saw Joanna.
1608
01:27:58,440 --> 01:28:00,120
I wouldn't ever call her my mum.
1609
01:28:01,360 --> 01:28:04,320
{\an8}It's just someone that
bought me into this world.
1610
01:28:06,080 --> 01:28:08,119
I often wonder what impact
1611
01:28:08,120 --> 01:28:10,640
that must have had
on her two children,
1612
01:28:10,720 --> 01:28:14,640
growing up knowing that
their mum is now in custody
1613
01:28:14,720 --> 01:28:18,880
for the rest of her life and
is known as a serial killer.
1614
01:28:20,440 --> 01:28:22,240
How do you approach that subject?
1615
01:28:22,320 --> 01:28:24,400
Honestly, you know,
Saff didn't find out
1616
01:28:24,480 --> 01:28:26,640
until she was, I think, about 12.
1617
01:28:27,560 --> 01:28:28,960
I went to a shop with my sister.
1618
01:28:29,040 --> 01:28:31,520
And when I was walking home,
there was a girl.
1619
01:28:31,600 --> 01:28:33,040
And she shouted, "Someone told me
1620
01:28:33,120 --> 01:28:36,400
that your mum's like a
murderer and she's in prison."
1621
01:28:36,480 --> 01:28:37,480
And I had no clue what that meant.
1622
01:28:37,560 --> 01:28:39,160
And then my dad had
to tell me everything.
1623
01:28:41,040 --> 01:28:44,559
It's the worst sentence
you're ever going to have to say.
1624
01:28:44,560 --> 01:28:45,840
And that's their mother.
1625
01:28:47,080 --> 01:28:50,760
I think what gets me the
most is the victim's families.
1626
01:28:50,840 --> 01:28:53,639
And then, obviously,
the people that I love.
1627
01:28:53,640 --> 01:28:57,040
What they've all had to go
through because of one woman.
1628
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:14,160
I wanted, more than
anything on this planet,
1629
01:29:14,240 --> 01:29:16,160
for them girls to have
their mother in their life.
1630
01:29:16,800 --> 01:29:18,199
Because they're both lovely.
1631
01:29:18,200 --> 01:29:21,440
And she's lost out big time.
1632
01:29:24,040 --> 01:29:25,959
I am grateful that
she's not in my life
1633
01:29:25,960 --> 01:29:28,519
because she's clearly
not a good person.
1634
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:31,080
So I'm glad I've not had
that influence around me.
1635
01:29:33,160 --> 01:29:34,560
I've got my dad.
1636
01:29:34,640 --> 01:29:37,840
So he's kind of been a mum and a dad
1637
01:29:37,920 --> 01:29:39,240
throughout my entire life.
1638
01:29:40,560 --> 01:29:42,240
It's the only thing
I'm good at.
1639
01:29:42,320 --> 01:29:43,720
It's the only thing I'm good at.
1640
01:29:43,800 --> 01:29:45,360
I don't have any skills.
1641
01:29:45,440 --> 01:29:47,480
But it just felt natural.
1642
01:29:50,720 --> 01:29:52,720
I think it's been a lot for my dad.
1643
01:29:53,520 --> 01:29:56,760
He likes to pretend it isn't.
1644
01:29:57,640 --> 01:29:59,319
But it definitely is.
1645
01:29:59,320 --> 01:30:01,079
Because it's a lot for
someone to go through.
1646
01:30:01,080 --> 01:30:03,680
So there's no way it
hasn't affected him.
1647
01:30:05,800 --> 01:30:07,000
I'm just me again.
1648
01:30:07,080 --> 01:30:09,959
Being with Jo, I lost me completely.
1649
01:30:09,960 --> 01:30:13,999
She took every bit of
self-esteem, confidence.
1650
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:16,279
Anything that was there was gone.
1651
01:30:16,280 --> 01:30:20,319
And you have to build all
of that back up, don't you?
1652
01:30:20,320 --> 01:30:21,479
It took a long time.
1653
01:30:21,480 --> 01:30:23,080
And now, I'm probably at a stage
1654
01:30:23,160 --> 01:30:25,600
where I'm the person that I
should have been all along.
1655
01:30:27,760 --> 01:30:29,399
He's done really well.
1656
01:30:29,400 --> 01:30:32,440
He's raised us both
and he's got a lovely partner.
1657
01:30:32,520 --> 01:30:34,640
So he's getting there, yeah.
1658
01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:37,119
They're my world,
both of my children.
1659
01:30:37,120 --> 01:30:38,159
They always have been.
1660
01:30:38,160 --> 01:30:41,480
And that's what's kept
everything from crumbling.
1661
01:30:42,560 --> 01:30:45,880
You know, I wouldn't be here today,
really, I suppose, without them.
1662
01:30:46,720 --> 01:30:48,720
I couldn't be more proud of my girls.
1663
01:30:48,800 --> 01:30:50,920
They're a credit to themselves.
1664
01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:52,599
They navigate this world.
1665
01:30:52,600 --> 01:30:57,679
And they do it with
politeness, caring, love.
1666
01:30:57,680 --> 01:30:59,560
So you can't ask for more than that.
1667
01:30:59,640 --> 01:31:02,880
They know they're loved
and they're what make me smile.